XF: take more control of Resources

[Xon]

No need to punish all developers because of few bad apples.

The actual phrase is "a bad apple spoils the bunch".

Proclaiming it is just "of few bad apples" doen't actually prevent a tragedy of the commons from ruining it for everyone.

 

[Mr Lucky]

and you should expect no returns from it.

True, but discussing a very simple agreement about this at the time of commissioning could save pages of posts whinging about it in hindsight

 

[Slavik]

True, but discussing a very simple agreement about this at the time of commissioning could save pages of posts whinging about it in hindsight

I don't even see why it would need to be discussed personally. Very few devs here charge for their actual time spent on development, even fewer don't subsidize the costs.

By the time you would work it out and come back around to the sales, your "commission" on each sale would be pennies.

 

[Joeychgo]

It would be nice if I could get all addons through here instead of having to go to another site. (Paid addons). Other then that, I'm ok for developers charging for their work.

 

[Alpha1]

To what end? What are we supposed to do if we find an add-on that is having issues?

Slapping a warning on the resource would help in extreme cases.
Though I think that having unresolved bug reports clearly visible on the main resource page would be much better.

All the signals are there. At minimum if you check the reviews, check the add-on doesn't have an "Unmaintained" prefix and check the most recent discussion messages then it's obvious if there's a problem.

Not really. I did as you describe (check reviews & recent discussion) with Waindigo Friends and even funded development after which it turned out that somewhere hidden in hundreds of replies there was a bug report for killer queries which made it unusable on a live big board. That's just one example. You are right that in many cases it is possible to see that there are issues by looking at the last 2 pages. But if there are no significant issues there, then that surely doesn't mean the addon is solid. We only know after finding and reading each and every bug report in the resource discussion.

Unmaintained just means that the person who released the addon does not guarantee support and the addon is provided as is. The addon may be fine.

 

[Steve F]

Though I think that having unresolved bug reports clearly visible on the main resource page would be much better.

Who would determine confirmed bug reports? Users or the Author? What if the add-on is abandoned (or in limbo)?

Although it would be nice to have some sort of tracking here I just can't see a clear path for it with the RM's current structure. It would literally need to have permissions for authors to move/merge posts into bug reports (threads?) among other things.

With that said it is all the more reason why myself and some others have stated that having our own sites to track things is the best way, for you know the ones that have to sort through add-on and even style bug reports. We're the ones that keep things updated, sorry if you have to register on a few sites.

Luckily a majority of our paid clients do use our site, I can't imagine tracking the same issues on 2 sites being to productive, one or the other is bound to get less attention.

About XF hosting all resources and taking percentage of the sales.
I wouldn't want XF to take a percentage honestly, but (I'll probably be flamed for this) a yearly fee for larger resource authors that have PAID resources I wouldn't be opposed too. Now, $100 year I wouldn't appreciate much but you have to think this is the best advertisement one could ask for if you're creating add-ons and styles for XF. This could possibly weed out some bad apples as well...

 

[Freelancer]

Seeing @Chris D arguing back and forth over multiple pages about "what is support?" does only make one thing very obvious: There is a huge need for clarification... (which equals "Rules"... which equals "Standards")*.
I am here now for about a year and a few months and I share the impression with those that think the quality of "add-ons" and their attached developers is very dynamic here with XenForo. Therefore, only raising the standards will help.

*Standards:

1) Classification of Add-ons

FREE, PAID – plus a class for COMPLEXITY: (SIMPLE, COMPLEX, VERY COMPLEX) therefore giving everybody a chance to know what to expect from the add-on. Prices should be bound to complexity. It can't be that a simple add-on charges more than a complex one. Sure, make it in ranges, so that the author can vary his add-on prices. Whenever a developer wants to charge money, it must be clear that this is something "professional" and therefore I can expect more than for a free add-on. It can not be that a developer charges "professional" prices and then argues with "I had no time in the last couple of months because I have a life/hobbies/girlfriend..."... Then he shouldn't charge money. That behavior is unprofessional.​

2) Descriptions of Add-ons

Need to follow templates as a minimum of information. If the author wants to add more, of course that is welcomed. But info like: Classification, Complexity, Development Time, Support Range, Demo Website, Feature List, Screenshots etc are just examples of what should be on every add-on description page.​

3) Demo Websites

This should be standard (for paid add-ons at least) because every developer has his add-on built somewhere on a platform and then he can also show it to the interested. It also helps finding bugs when the developer shows Beta or Release Candidate versions on his demo site. Some developers do this and I found it very helpful and I think the developers too! Instead for 37 x.x.x.x point updates in a month they can do 1 consolidated from the findings on the demo website.
​

4) One Place to Download and Pay

You have to register on external websites to download and pay for the add-on although they are maintained here on XF, which is in my opinion very redundant (especially when I get two emails every time the add-on was updated on XenForo and the developer website). This is not a very common practice with various software platforms (shop software for example or obviously app stores). Of course "support" should be handled with developers, but if I do not need support with a specific add-on, why should I register on their page.
​

5) Expected Support Range

In the description (or on an extra "Author Page") there must be a clarification which support a user can expect for the add-on. This can also be in classes from "Simple" to "Complex". What to expect? "Support Forum", "Ticket System", "Response time", "Working hours". Everything summarized on one page. FREE add-ons should obviously be classified as "simple support" as you can not expect that someone is willing to spend hours on your specific problems for no charge.
MINIMUM SUPPORT FOR PAID ADD-ONS SHOULD BE: Answering questions about the add-on, helping with troubleshooting, resolving bugs (!!!). Adding features is NOT "support" and should fall under the discretion of the author alone. But handling support and adding a lot of add-on features will influence the following point #6...
​

6) Developer Rating (as a supplement to "Add-on Rating")

Rating the add-ons does not reflect "rating the author" very well... Some add-ons might be great but the author is not very communicative, provides poor support or does not pay much attention to updates, which could be reflected by an "Author Rating". So whenever you think "wow this is just a great idea for an add-on" and then you read the author rating which is like 2 out of 5, you do not go for the add-on if you need professional support. This also makes it possible to sort add-ons by "highest author rating" rather than "number of add-ons".
​

7) Developer "Certification"

Yes exactly, everyone that is able to fulfill the above points within 99-100% and who receives great ratings should become labeled "XenForo Certified Developer" by XenForo. That makes it VERY OBVIOUS who is worth to put your money on or just be able to feel that it is a good decision to use his add-ons. If you are not expecting much then you do not need to look for certified developers, if you are working professionally and need professional support, then only go for certified developers. Furthermore, to become "certified" will bring more competition and ambition to the developers and will discourage those who are not really behind it, thus raising the overall quality of all add-ons.
​

8) Paid Add-ons should bring money to XF. Period.

Very early into XF I amended to a thread I forgot now, that it is not comprehensible why XF does not charge fees for add-ons. With the above proposals it becomes very obvious that it includes work of the XF team. To approve a certified developer, the XF team should at least look once into the code for quality reasons. Delaying a publication of an add-on if the code is of very low standards will also force developers to improve. And hell I saw very low HTML and CSS coding with more than one add-on here. (But also very great structured, commented lean code too.) When all add-ons are paid and downloaded via XF (see #4), it should be easy to set in a certain percentage as fee. A percentage also reflects the COMPLEXITY of the add-on and code (see #1).
​

Why is this so important?
Because it spoils all the fun and brings a lot of frustration when the whole scene is like the "Wild West" of add-ons. Come and go, update or not, support or not, aim high – shoot low... With Standards it is a win for everybody (I said this before in the other thread if I remember right). Me going through the list of developers in my head, I know who would easily become a certified developer and who not. Good if everybody has a chance to see this very clear.

Thank you for reading this all. If you have count all words with "obvious" and tell me the number, you win a grinning smiley.

 

[Alpha1]

Who would determine confirmed bug reports? Users or the Author? What if the add-on is abandoned (or in limbo)?

Users submit reports or confirm they experience the same bug. Resource authors determine what is a confirmed bug report and what is not a bug.
If an addon is abandoned then it will still be clear how many confirmed and unconfirmed bugs are there. If there are a lot of unconfirmed bugs visible then clearly the developer has not been processing bug reports. This should show a clear sign to potential customers that there is something wrong.

sorry if you have to register on a few sites.

Registration generally happens after one decides to purchase. Bug trackers for publicly available products should always be publicly visible to unregistered users.
But I dont think its a problem that users need to register on a few sites.

 

[Joeychgo]

One concern I have is with xf 2 coming, is major addon authors updating their products. The problem is if I'm forced to remove a significant feature because the major addon hasn't been updated to work with new versions. Simple addons don't have this problem as in general someone else can remake them if necessary. But the major addons are not so easy to deal with in this regard

 

[James]

One concern I have is with xf 2 coming, is major addon authors updating their products. The problem is if I'm forced to remove a significant feature because the major addon hasn't been updated to work with new versions. Simple addons don't have this problem as in general someone else can remake them if necessary. But the major addons are not so easy to deal with in this regard

Have you considered asking this question directly to your addon's developer?

 

[Joeychgo]

Have you considered asking this question directly to your addon's developer?

I can ask but how Is a developer going to know if he is going to flake? I'm not talking about a developer who is going to choose not to update, but more about a developer who will just disappear

 

[rainmotorsports]

The one thing that scares me is I'm willing to come in at a decent price and start churning out real work and charge backs are enough to run me off. The customers are worse than some of the developers.

You don't even want to know what my time is actually worth. I'm unqualified and unemployable in my field. Just came into it out of fast food. I do less work than these McDonald's employees you probably complain about wanting 15 an hour and I get paid more for it. A company is charged $120 the moment I put my car in gear, even if you tell me to turn around. My work can be as simple as plugging monitors in. I've had customers ask for me personally and contractors fight over who I'm going to work for. So when I think about what a qualified employee is worth...

So when I want to charge $5 after spending 8 hours testing, documenting and packaging a template mod that takes 30 minutes to develop, there shouldn't be a problem. Not to mention on going support.

 

[Joeychgo]

The one thing that scares me is I'm willing to come in at a decent price and start churning out real work and charge backs are enough to run me off. The customers are worse than some of the developers.

You don't even want to know what my time is actually worth. I'm unqualified and unemployable in my field. Just came into it out of fast food. I do less work than these McDonald's employees you probably complain about wanting 15 an hour and I get paid more for it. A company is charged $120 the moment I put my car in gear, even if you tell me to turn around. My work can be as simple as plugging monitors in. I've had customers ask for me personally and contractors fight over who I'm going to work for. So when I think about what a qualified employee is worth...

So when I want to charge $5 after spending 8 hours testing, documenting and packaging a template mod that takes 30 minutes to develop, there shouldn't be a problem. Not to mention on going support.

Which is a good argument for sales to be run through xf. I wonder how many good developers don't bother to make great addons because of things like this

 

[Arty]

Which is a good argument for sales to be run through xf. I wonder how many good developers don't bother to make great addons because of things like this

How? Chargebacks wouldn't magically disappear. Third party can only make illusion of chargebacks disappearing by covering expenses from their cut. However all developers will have to give cut of their earnings to third party. There is nothing good about that suggestion.


Current system works fine. The only thing that I think can be improved is reviews/feedback system, that would encourage customers to leave reviews.

No need to force unwanted services on developers. It won't solve any problems.

 

[Joeychgo]

How? Chargebacks wouldn't magically disappear. Third party can only make illusion of chargebacks disappearing by covering expenses from their cut. However all developers will have to give cut of their earnings to third party. There is nothing good about that suggestion.


Current system works fine. The only thing that I think can be improved is reviews/feedback system, that would encourage customers to leave reviews.

No need to force unwanted services on developers. It won't solve any problems.

Because you can make it so on the third chargeback (for example) that the user can no longer purchase at all. That will stop serial charge backers.

The other thing is, you don't have to force this on developers, just make it an attractive option.

 

[Arty]

Because you can make it so on the third chargeback (for example) that the user can no longer purchase at all. That will stop serial charge backers.

I've experienced only 2-3 such chargebacks in many years. Last one was just few months ago from rather active user on this forum, who claimed that he made a "mistake" (you don't open dispute claiming that card was stolen by mistake), after which he asked if he can purchase again. That happens. But its not an issue at all.

All the rest were done when customer paid with stolen credit card (most common situation is buyer from US, but IP from Vietnam). Those chargebacks are rarely instant, usually happen couple of months after purchase when card owner discovers unknown payments in bank statement. Your suggestion won't help with these chargebacks.

The other thing is, you don't have to force this on developers, just make it an attractive option.

Problem with that is if it becomes too attractive, it would become preferred method of purchase for customers. Then by not using it sellers will loose customers. Then it becomes a choice between losing customers and losing money. Nether of those options are good.

 

[ibrian]

It's ultimately a case of buyer beware.

Every resource sold for Xenforo customers reflects on Xenforo, and Xenforo may not want to promote the idea their brand is something to be wary of.

All the signals are there.

Most people will not complain and instead, just drift away. I've long learned to look after the silent majority.

In the meantime, here's a 5-page thread asking the Xenforo team to re-consider how they approach the issue of resources, in order to make it better at protecting your paying customers and developers alike. Is that signal enough?

 

[Bionic Rooster]

Every resource sold for Xenforo customers reflects on Xenforo

It certainly doesn't, it reflects on the developer. Though I can see where it is easy to twist the truth to make Xenforo out to be the bad guy.

and Xenforo may not want to promote the idea their brand is something to be wary of.

What do you suggest? Have Xenforo ban all 3rd party developers from posting here? As @Chris D said "It's ultimately a case of buyer beware."

Most people will not complain and instead, just drift away.

I can see this happening for those who believe the propaganda being promoted here.

In the meantime, here's a 5-page thread asking the Xenforo team to re-consider how they approach the issue of resources, in order to make it better at protecting your paying customers and developers alike. Is that signal enough?

Xenforo is not responsible for the unfounded allegations directed at them any more than if there were 5 pages of accusations leveled at you for being responsible for 3 rd party developers and demanding YOU do something about it.
People need to take responsibility for their own mistakes and stop passing the buck off on those who are protecting their customers by creating a safe and secure forum platform.

 

[Ozzy47]

What do you suggest? Have Xenforo ban all 3rd party developers from posting here? As @Chris D said "It's ultimately a case of buyer beware

Exactly, turn it into a vB type addon site, heck why stop there, stop all addons from being listed on XF, and don't allow signatures that lead to developer sites.